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~  Manifest Destiny ~ 
Forum du 29 Sept. 2000
sur www.tappedin.org

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Transcript from Social Studies Forum on Tappedin
on Manifest Destiny (#34169) 2000 / 09 /27

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] will wait a moment or two more and then start the festivities.

MichaelAH says, "as always, lets introduce ourselves... I'm Michael Hutchison, and I teach social studies in southwestern Indiana"

PhilipAB projects Intro:

Philip Benz teaches English and does teacher training in web-based learning in the
Ardeche region of central France.

BJB says, "I'm an art teacher in Pennsylvania and a staff for TAPPED IN"

DonnaMH says, "Donna Hendry, english and tech Connecticut"

BrianG has arrived.

CarolynC says, "Hi I am a district technology integrator...in Wi"

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] waves to Brian

MichaelAH [to Brian]: "we're just getting underway, and doing introductions..."

BrianG says, "Thanks I will try to pick up and learn how to do this"

MichaelAH says, "we're discussing this evening teaching Manifest Destiny
and the Westward movement"

MichaelAH says, "this is mainly a US History topic, but maybe we can
come up with some ways to relate it to other areas, too"

MichaelAH says, "so, I'll open the floor to anyone who has resources
they'd like to share, or projects they'd like to discuss"

PhilipAB says, "Unlike some other historical periods and ideologies we
might teach, Manifest Destiny has a very real link to understanding today's world."

BJB says, "Last month's National Geographic had a good article on westward movement"

PhilipAB says, "And there are a *lot* of web-based resources out there to exploit."

DonnaMH saw that, Bj:)

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "first, can you expand on your view about the link to
understanding today's world"

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] is interested in that idea...

PhilipAB shuffles his notes

PhilipAB asks, "Can I post a few thoughts I scribbled down earlier?"

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "sure"

PhilipAB says, "Manifest Destiny has been around a long time, some would
argue since the discovery of "the new world". The idea that "the new world" was
full of unclaimed virgin land free for the taking laid the foundation for later
expressions of Manifest Destiny."

PhilipAB says, "I see the period really getting off to a good start with
the Louisianna Purchase in 1803 opening the west to intensive colonization;
but the landmark text so often cited is John L O'Sullivan's 1845 editorial in
favor of the annexation of Texas.


By today's standards, this text is a laughable example of racist and nationalist
paternalism, but it so well summarized the spirit of the age that its rhetoric
cannot be ignored.

The same ideology, embodied in Kipling's "The White Man's Burden"
carries right on through the Spanish-American war without any significant
changes, and it is arguably still alive today."

PhilipAB says, "BTW, y'all may want to detach the text window...
to increase the viewing area."

CarolynC says, "how"

MichaelAH [to Carolyn]: "you should see a small button with the word
DETACH by it... click it."

CarolynC says, "got it...thanks"

MichaelAH holds up a BIG sign: DON'T CLOSE THE TAPestry WINDOW

PhilipAB says, "Perhaps more important than the historical perspective
is the insight that the study of Manifest Destiny gives us on
international issues today.

The idea that the US is obviously the most successful, most powerful
and most coveted nation in the world is very widespread. Whether in the sphere
of economics, where the dollar is king, of culture, where American films and
TV are busy shapinglifestyles around the globe, or even of nutrition, where
McDomination is the order of the day, the civilizing mission of the White Man's
burden is alive and kicking, despite any claims to the contrary by politically
correct partisans of salad bowl demographics."

PhilipAB says, "there. that oughta get us started. <g> remember you can
also use the pasteboard to view text that is scrolling off your screen."

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "so what you're saying is that Manifest Destiny
is still "alive and kicking"..."

BJB asks, "Is Manifest Destiny only an American phenomenon?"

DonnaMH asks, "so, what you're saying is, America, after supposedly
finishing manifest destiny with the coast to coast thing, is now out to
conquer the world...and to a certian extent has at least with our ideas?"

PhilipAB says, "In different forms, yes. Just as colonialism has changed
its skin to pass unnoticed."

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "so you're teaching MD more in a sociological
sense than historical?"

PhilipAB says, "I don't think we can see Manifest Destiny as strictly a
conquering impulse. It's more a motivational element behind the scenes."

MichaelAH . o O ( MD=Manifest Destiny )

DonnaMH asks, "wouldn't you say colonialism and manifest destiny aer
really the same thing?"

PhilipAB says, "I wouldn't, but there *are* comparisons to be made."

DonnaMH . o O ( its our duty as civilized people to teach the "savages"
the error of their ways? )

JonathanZ says, "I don't think the concept of Manifest Destiny is not
just American but the term Manifest Destiny is specific to the Western
Movement"

DonnaMH nods...okay...i AM thinking more concept

BJB . o O ( thanks, Jon )

PhilipAB says, "Jonathan is very right, the civilizing mission of the
white man was not an exclusively American idea."

DonnaMH . o O ( look at the German's in South Africa... )
DonnaMH says, "or the french in vietnam, before the 60's"

PhilipAB says, "But if we're going to teach this stuff, we need to
begin, IMO, with some history. Otherwise we're just lecturing our
students on opinions and airy concepts."

DonnaMH nods

PhilipAB is curious what approach Michael has used as a history teacher.

JonathanZ says, "as George Carlin once said: It's fine to give the natives a
lift, it's not OK to nail the lifts to their feet.""

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "actually, my US History experience has declined
somewhat recently; I'm mainly government anymore"

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "and my US History has been mainly 20th Century,
so the westward movement is already generally covered by then"

PhilipAB says, "I was motivated to look more deeply into Manifest
Destiny recently because the subject appeared on an upper-level French
teacher certification exam, Agrégation."

JonathanZ says, "Far and Away is not too bad in terms of showing what a
Land Race was like""

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "was that surprising to you....
I usually thinkn of MD as more an American experience"

PhilipAB says, "Michael, the beginning of the 20th century saw the
anti-imperialist reaction to harsh expressions of manifest destiny,
gunboat diplomacy and such."

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "you're correct"

PhilipAB says, "I meant to say a French gov't *English* exam..."

PhilipAB asks, "So, can I show you some resources?"

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "go ahead when you're ready..."

JonathanZ says, "please"

PhilipAB asks, "I believe everybody knows about projections?"
PhilipAB projects Projections.
---------------
When someone "projects" a website, you will see a new window open on
your computer screen. All you have to do is switch back and forth
between the windows to alternately view the website, or exchange
comments and questions with the other folks here in Tapped In. If you
understand all this and are ready to continue, say so.
---------------

PhilipAB projects the URL:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/multiverse/manifest/

PhilipAB says, "This is a site I put together mostly as a set of link pages."

PhilipAB says, "I didn't prepare it with students in mind, more with
other teachers in mind, but students are the next step."

PhilipAB asks, "Shall we go straight to the links page?"

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "sure"

PhilipAB says, "You can read my opinionated ramblings later. <g>"

PhilipAB says, "I suggest we all click on "manifest links""

PhilipAB says, "The site that impressed me the most was The Age of
Imperialism, on Small Planet."

PhilipAB projects the URL:
http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/toc.html

PhilipAB says, "This site just covers the final stage of MD, but it does
a mighty fine job. There is also a teachers resource page."

JonathanZ says, "It would seem that we are talking generally about the
U.S. finding policies of expansion with built-in rationalizations, e.g.
MD and The Monroe Doctrine"

PhilipAB says, "For example, look at the Spanish American War page"

PhilipAB says, "Jonathan, that's my perspective."

JonathanZ says, "and you can't tell me that most of the wars we have
fought have NOT been about making money"

PhilipAB says, "I really like the way it is presented, with a sidebar
giving links to associated pictures, maps and other info"

JonathanZ says, "but it is very hard to not get on a soap box...to let
students draw their own conclusions"

PhilipAB asks, "Shall I show you the teacher resource page?"

PhilipAB projects the URL:
http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/teacher.html

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] waves to Debbie (again) and Sahai

JonathanZ asks, "that's a very tidy lesson. How much time would you
give such a mini-unit?"

PhilipAB says, "Jean Sahai is an English teacher in Guadeloupe who
inspired me to prepare these resources."

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] welcomes Jean to TAPPED IN!
MichaelAH . o O ( and to our Social Studies forum )

PhilipAB says, "IMO, the lesson plan is quite ambitious, but remember
that my students are second-language learners of English."

SahaiJ says, "Yes, Phil is my accomplice in trying to show the french
candidates to Agreg, a top level competitive exam for ESL teachers in
France to use new tech resources for their exam prep"

SahaiJ says, "Thanks Michael"

MichaelAH [to All]: "at this point let me remind you that I can provide
transcripts, either through the SSF listserv or if you leave your e-mail
address, we'll send one to you"

MichaelAH . o O ( you'll want to have access to Philip's great links )

PhilipAB says, "Of course, the web also offers tons of primary historical
documents. The selection on the MD topic is particularly rich."

CarolynC asks, "How can I reach the SSF listserv archive?"

SahaiJ says, "The agreg page also has a MD section for the french
Agrégation competitive exam 2001"

MichaelAH [to Carolyn]: "you can go to the ssf page... and it's at....."

MichaelAH says,
http://www.tappedin.org/mailman/listinfo/ssf

JonathanZ says, "It looks like some of the information could be tailored
to an upper elementary grade classroom"

PhilipAB says, "There are many links to primary historical documents and
informative websites on the site i presented, as well as links to 6
webquests I stumbled across, but haven't really evaluated yet."

PhilipAB asks, "Now I've kind of monopolized our time here, what would
y'all like to explore or explain?"

SahaiJ says, "Phil can you project your page, I din't know abt the webquests"

CarolynC says, "Thanks, I bookkmarked it...I have to do a presentation to SS
teacher Oct 9th for out district"

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "maybe once you evaluate the webquests, maybe you
can post those to the SS forum listserv"

PhilipAB says, "The URL of my Manifest Destiny site is
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/multiverse/manifest/

and from its links page you'll find dozens of interesting sites."

JonathanZ says, "well, I always thought it was important to find a way
to tie personal influence on history to historical events. Many people
feel disenfranchised from historical events, yet it is the choice of
individuals that has made history"

PhilipAB projects the URL:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/multiverse/manifest/

PhilipAB asks, "Jonathan, would you agree that the ideology of manifest
destiny is still lurking around today?"

JonathanZ says, "for example showing how the background of a key person
in history contributed to a particular event can give life to history"

JonathanZ says, "Of course it is. Just look at how the Bureau of Indian Affairs
is handled."

DonnaMH hasn't...but will check back later

SahaiJ says, after the explosion of space shuttle Challenger en 1986,
President Ronald Reagan declared: "We have grown used to the idea of space,
and perhaps we forget that we have just begun. We are still pioneers.
They, the members of the Challenger crew, were pioneers."

DonnaMH snorts...don't get me started on native american affairs

PhilipAB asks, "A key person like Teddy Rossevelt, or John L O'Sullivan?"

SahaiJ says, "Well native spacexplorers, then"

JonathanZ says, "it is still the implicit policy that if we don't need
it, they can have it, but as soon as we need it, the native peoples have to move"

SahaiJ says, "and some Christian missionaries still believe in MD today, don't they?"

PhilipAB says, "Yes although instead of sending in the marines, today's
partisans of manifest destiny use subtler methods."

MichaelAH [to Philip]: "are you refering to foreign aid?"

JonathanZ says, "MD was primarily political and financial, not religious.
Religion was required to motivate the masses to colonize the West before Spain,
England, or France could get there first"

JonathanZ says, "MD is primarily financial expression in terms of corporate buy-outs"

SahaiJ says, "Biblical quotations were used to support MD"

PhilipAB says, "When reviewing sites for Manifest Destiny, I of course
came across a lot of material on the heinous treatment dealt out to Native Americans
-- the Long March, Wounded Knee, you name it."

PhilipAB says, "And the notion of social darwinism is a strong part of our
collective unconsciousness."

SahaiJ says, "Mexicans, Spaniards, Philippinos were also victims..."

JonathanZ says, "yes, they were. They need backing from religious
leaders to sell the idea as something more than the greedy land grab it
really was"

PhilipAB says, "survival of the fittest" is often used to justify the
victory of capitalism over communism"

SahaiJ says, "also the Bible was used against MD"

PhilipAB is less familiar with the role of the Bible in attacking manifest destiny

JonathanZ says, "Don't blame that on Darwin. Malthus' theories were more
influential in terms of 'survival of the fittest' but it was pinned on Darwin"

PhilipAB says, "Jonathan, I think John L O'Sullivan's article would be a
great starting point for re-examining historical and present values in
thsi area."

JonathanZ says, "I would agree, Philip"

SahaiJ says, "anyone knows about Macaulay and East Indian (India's) culture ?"

SahaiJ says, "shows how the British tried to exterminate languages and cultures
of India, Macaulay died in 1859"

SahaiJ projects the URL
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~raley/research/english/macaulay.html
The civilizing mission in British India. How the British tried to
exterminate languages and cultures of India.

JonathanZ says, "We did that here when we took native populations, and
some of the immigrant populations to 'educate' them to our ways"

SahaiJ exclaims, "its compact reading but maybe some of us have taken
fast reading seminars !!!"

PhilipAB says, "But examples like this are useful for showing that
Manifest Destiny was not just the result of the sceming of a small group
of evil men."

SahaiJ exclaims, "yes aren't they Phil !"

PhilipAB says, "It was the spirit of the age..."

JonathanZ says, "Rudyard Kipling gives fairly good descriptions of the prevalent
attitudes at the time"

SahaiJ says, "I think it's an important parallel since the US philosophy somehow came
from Britain after all"

PhilipAB says, "Rudyard Kipling's poem, "the White Man's Burden" was the
object of a fierce polemic at the time, one that could be profitably studied as well."

SahaiJ projects the URL:
http://www.boondocksnet.com/kipling/

JonathanZ says, "you mean the idea that possession is 9/10 of the law? If we
can take it from you, it's ours."

JonathanZ making note to read that one

PhilipAB says, "One of the sites I link to has tons of stuff on this polemic."

SahaiJ says, "Now can I show you the MD page I've prepared fro the
french agreg candidates - it's mostly an assemblage of links and
comments from the web"

JonathanZ says, "please :"

SahaiJ projects the URL:
http://www.outremer.com/~sharad/agreg/manifest.html

PhilipAB says, "In fact y'all may have heard of Jim Zwick, who has
edited several books on Twain, AFAIK, and done a lot of other historical work"

PhilipAB says, "Jim Zwick has a *huge* site with resources on the
imperialist period."

SahaiJ says, "Yes Jim Zwick has done a super job"

JonathanZ says, "It would be good to look at the artwork and music of
the time since it reflects the emotional tone. Half the world was
surging forward and the other half wanted to go back the way it was
prior to industrialization"

PhilipAB says, "Jim Zwick has a lot of art, I enjoyed the political cartoons most."

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] looks at the clock...

PhilipAB says, "So... we've ladled on the ideology pretty heavily tonight.
I would have liked to discuss more teaching issues, but there's only so much time..."

MichaelAH says, "and wonders how everyone is doing time wise"

CarolynC exclaims, "Will you be doing something like this; but, global
studies soon!"

PhilipAB asks, "Michael, could you preview future topics?"

JonathanZ says, "another thing to explore if you are one to develop thematic
units around history would be the state of countries experiencing mass emigrations
to the U.S. which contributed to westward expansion"

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] wonders if Philip, Jean, Jonathan or
anyone else has any other thoughts on this great topic

PhilipAB asks, "Carolyn, could you be more precise about global studies?"

MichaelAH [to Carolyn]: "we did Asian studies a few weeks ago, as well
as world history... you can find the transcripts in the archives"

MichaelAH says, "I do have a couple of housekeeping chores to take care
of, first...."

MichaelAH . o O ( next week's session, and if anyone wants a transcript
of tonight's session )

JonathanZ says, "the interesting thing for me is that "the White Man"
seems to have taken upon himself to act as Ward for all, even without
the benefit of an invitation. Just look at our current political stance
in getting involved in foreign diplomacy"

MichaelAH says, "first, next session......."

MichaelAH says, "we're going to be hosting another "special guest""

MichaelAH says, "who was here for a few minutes last week..."

MichaelAH says, "Lee Sebastiani will be here to demonstrate "alternative history",
and a graduate level course she's offering online"

MichaelAH [to Jonathan]: "she's posted a message on the NCSS-L listserv,
as well as EDTECH, and the course does sound really interesting"

PhilipAB says, "Ah yes, "what if the South had won the civil war, etc."

JonathanZ says, "entire novels have been written on 'what if'"

PhilipAB says, "Harry Turtledove, IIRC."

JonathanZ says, "granted they are historical fiction"

MichaelAH says, "I'm guessing if anyone in the forum would like to take
the course for grad credit or CEUs, they could totally online, although
I don't know what Lee is going to require, etc."

MichaelAH says, "those would be good questions to ask her next week"

MichaelAH [Social Studies forum] remembers what it was like driving
after teaching all day to work on his graduate degree and would have
LOVED to do it online...

THE END
Fin du Forum
"Social Studies - Manifest Destiny"
du 29 Sept. 2000
sur http://www.tappedin.org
animé par
Michael Hutchison, social studies teacher in southwestern Indiana, USA
avec
Philip Benz (Ardèche),
Jean-S. Sahaï (Guadeloupe).

Pour en savoir plus sur les conférences virtuelles
sur TappedIn (ouvertes à tous): Page d'information

retour à
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